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+--- Thread: POLL: New Economy (/showthread.php?tid=785)
RE: POLL: New Economy - shppthwhtfx - 08-11-2012
@fire well if we're counting like that, there are two options that oppose "gold standard": option 1 and 2... so combine those and those against gold standard still outnumber those for =.=
@aeon fire didn't come up with that just now, it was mentioned a long while ago in this thread. I also don't see how that's a better point than what justin or any other person saying things against gold standard has said. Why are you pushing for this so much anyway? o.o what's so good about "gold standard"? I've only heard negative stuff so far.
RE: POLL: New Economy - fireb4llz - 08-12-2012
@shpp tbh, I only said that because I think its a little unfair, not because I want gold standard to win. If someone chose 3 twice I would have mentioned it. Also you could easily say 3+2 outnumber 1 and 1+3 outnumber 2. I dont see your point.
tbh, I dont see how much more simpler trading and other oppertunities to make money is necessarily a bad thing. I think this option can hold a lot of potiential as long as we implement it right. I think the gold to money transaction should be $5(or less) = 1 gold bar . Gold is semi rare but I think gaining around $160 per gold pocket is a bit too unfair to builders. I want this to provide an alternate source of money, not give miners the economic advantage.
RE: POLL: New Economy - pigpenguin - 08-12-2012
@fire 1&2 are related in the sense that they both use our current currency, not gold (option 3). You can divide the poll into two categories: in favor of gold and not in favor of gold. People not in favor of gold outnumber those in favor of it.
I think it's important to recognize our GOALS with this economy change.
With the 1 Gold= $20 ratio combined with the 1-2 gold ingot per 10 minute income, it would appear to me that Aeon's goal is to try close the gap between rich and poor: making the rich poorer and the poor richer. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but with the proposed gold currency, that is what I believe will happen.
Here's my model:
PLAYER A: Currently has $100
PLAYER B: Currently has $5000
Player B has 5000% the money Player A does.
PLAYER A after 10 hours of gameplay: $100+$240(auto income)= $340
PLAYER B after 10 hours of gameplay: $5000+$240(auto income)= $5240
Player B has 1540% the money Player A does.
PLAYER A after 24 hours of gameplay: $100+$576=$676
PLAYER B after 24 hours of gameplay: $5000+$576=$5576
Player B has 824% the money Player A does.
With the proposed gold currency
Using the proposed conversion ratio and income (1 Gi per 10 min):
PLAYER A: 5 Gi
PLAYER B: 250 Gi
Player B still has 5000% the money Player A does.
Player A after 10 hours of gameplay: 5 Gi+ 60 Gi= 65 Gi
Player B after 10 hours of gameplay: 250 Gi+ 60 Gi= 310 Gi
Player B now has 476% the money Player A does.
Player A after 24 hours of gameplay: 5 Gi+ 144 Gi= 149 Gi
Player B after 24 hours of gameplay: 250 Gi+ 144 Gi= 394 Gi
Player B now only has 264% the money Player A does.
So, with the gold currency, player B will have 264% the money player A does instead of the 824% using the current currency and income. Note that this is the CONSERVATIVE model. The also-proposed 2 ingots per 10 minutes would close in the gap even faster.
Sorry for the lengthy explanation. I needed to put up a plausible example to get a point across.
The model, of course, does not take other forms of money growth into account (like shops). That being said, one may argue that rich players will stay rich because their incomes (from things such as shops) are greater than the newer and poorer players. The auto-income, in my opinion, is still TOO HIGH to keep a gap between the rich and poor players. I won't go on and attack scarecrows until somebody brings it up....
But again, let's go on and present our goals with the economy and if possible, provide a solution to reach the goal.
Here's mine:
Keep money flowing quickly AKA people constantly buying and selling items.
Solution: Promote the shoplist. I know I've said it before, but I think promoting the shoplist will GREATLY improve overall money flow. What good is the money if people don't know where to spend it? A simple 10 minute interval broadcast should do the job. The shoplist can be updated so that it provides a warp and brief statement about the shop. For example: /warp 94shop owned by HugoReyes: Stocks general items and music discs
Give money value.
Solution: The server shop. With it, people will know that even if all the shops were to go out of stock (not so hard to believe), their money can be used someplace.
I have several more goals and solutions, but these are the main ones.
"It would be mutually beneficial to all users, miners, shop owners, and builders alike. As of the current Economy, the system is grossly in favour of shop owners."
Shop owners have to be miners to get any sort of business. I don't know of any successful shops that don't sell mined materials or their refined products (like buckets and rails).... except for perhaps Minemall which seems to thrive off of wool sales.
And shpp, I agree. "what's so good about "gold standard"? I've only heard negative stuff so far."
RE: POLL: New Economy - Aeonex - 08-12-2012
"Shop owners have to be miners to get any sort of business. I don't know of any successful shops that don't sell mined materials or their refined products (like buckets and rails).... except for perhaps Minemall which seems to thrive off of wool sales."
While this is true, it completely ignores this point:
-Users buy from other shops and sell their goods at slightly higher prices to keep in stock and keep a good image for their shop"
I did this all the time with Globoshop, so I could keep in stock. Other players did it constantly as well. While all shops require materials to be mined, the current economy is still grossly in favour of shop owners, no matter what light you put it in. This is a valid fact. If you don't agree, what argument can you come up against my other points?
Points:
-The best shop owner has a monopoly over other shop owners.
-The current economy is setup so trade is almost completely unnecessary/irrelevant
-How does anyone earn money other than sitting around all day, gaining interest, or owning a shop?
-Shop owners will constantly fight each other over prices and lower them, despite demand. (Even with a server run shop)
Gold Standard Pros:
-Trade becomes valuable
-Gold has more usage
-The gap between the wealthy and the poor would be fixed
-Money could be earned without a shop or without sitting around.
-There would be a set price for things, inflation would only occur with the amount of gold people have.
-A server shop could still be implemented with a gold standard economy.
These are 4 major problems the gold system would fix, with only minor drawbacks. And yes, a main goal is to separate the gap between the wealthy and the poor. We're all focusing on the negative of the gold standard, when clearly the negative is outweighed by the positive. As Indrae said, the conversion is made because I don't want Justincasekazoo (or myself) having 1000 blocks of gold, it's just ridiculous to have that much gold in the Economy. It would crash due to inflation. This is why I think the initial conversion from dollars to gold should be high, and then our server can run on whatever prices it is comfortable with afterward.
@Shpp: I'm pushing the gold standard because I am sick of users needing to bust their rump to maintain their shops. I'm fighting it because I want people to operate on an equal platform for earning money. I am an Admin, shpp, I can spawn -anything- I want. What benefit(s) would I get personally, for promoting any currency system? None. (Granted I won't spawn anything because it's not right or legit) EDIT: I don't even have the time to operate a shop as an Admin anyway, nor any time to mine.
(08-11-2012, 06:20 PM)fire897 Wrote: Just to clarify, Charlie used two accounts to vote for option 2 so subtract 1 vote from option 2 when looking at the poll.
EDIT: I changed the votes from 11 to 10 for Option 2 to account for Charlie's second vote. Thanks for the heads up Fire.
RE: POLL: New Economy - blueapplepiedude - 08-12-2012
@aeon, whats the difference between the economy now, and the gold one? the money will still be the same, but a pain in the butt to be online to trade. Think about people who are on by themselves because they're in a different time zone?
How about a server economy reset?
RE: POLL: New Economy - fireb4llz - 08-12-2012
@blue I think you can still use the /money pay command if there not online, just like any other option on that list. The difference is if they are online you can simply hand them gold instead of typing a huge command.
RE: POLL: New Economy - pigpenguin - 08-12-2012
RE: POLL: New Economy - Justin Case Kazoo - 08-12-2012
RE: POLL: New Economy - pigpenguin - 08-12-2012
Justin, I believe all 3 options still use chest shops. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
If you don't want the system to automatically close the gap, option 3 isnt for you.
I don't mind seeing other players gain a lot of money. I just prefer that they work for it instead of having the system throw wealth at them.
RE: POLL: New Economy - shppthwhtfx - 08-12-2012
If you get tired of this long-winded counter-argument, please skip to the end. There is a poll proposal there :3 I broke the argument into sections to avoid confusion beyond what is already present.
This Long-Winded Counter-Argument Part 1:
Miners have and can always sell to shops (plus it's not that hard to make a temp shop), many shop owners advertise how they'll buy from people bulk. Pigpen has even started setting up shared areas for people to co-own a corner of his shop.
In a gold standard economy, all that will change for miners is they won't need to sell their gold before they buy something else. They will still need to sell their other goods they don't want in order to participate in the economy system (like they always have), while builders will have to stop what they're doing and mine a little to keep up with the inflation that will happen from giving miners (pure and shop owner hybrid alike) this extra edge.
Self Argument:
I understand you're leaving the "get money per 10 minutes" thing, but this change will decrease the value even further of that money they're getting
...probably not much, maybe I should stop caring.
Those who only buy are a large portion of consumers in our economy though. If we screw them over, who will buy all these useless things the people actually selling things in the economy don't want?
I'm sure those selling want similar things to those buying, the small bit who want different will get what they want.
But if they want the same things, those who sell will have the money to buy out the shops D:
Well that's what non-miners/sellers get for not participating in the economy.
...Ok that's true >.>
Sorry, arguing with myself. It happens.
This Long-Winded Counter-Argument Part 2:
Thank you for listing the advantages to gold standard, I would like to disagree with a few now. Correct/convince me if I'm wrong please.
Even with gold standard, the best shop owner has a monopoly over other shop owners.
Trade happens just as often as it will with gold standard, unless you count gold as bartering.
People can and always will gain money by gaining interest, owning a shop, or mining and selling/trading to someone. Gold will just be easier to "sell/trade" in gold standard.
Shop owners will constantly fight each other over prices and lower them, despite demand even with gold standard (except for gold), thinking changing the currency to gold will make prices stay any more stable than they have been (which seem to be pretty stable except for eccentric or price ignorant people) makes no sense to me.
under gold standard:
Trade becomes valuable only with gold
Gold has more usage, which is nice if you have a ton of gold I guess >.> making more millionaires and those who don't like mining even poorer.
"The gap between the wealthy and the poor would be fixed" ... I'm guessing you're arguing anyone who can mine can make money. Ok, I can see this being true to an extent. This will bring miners, shop owners and the millionaires closer ...eventually.
"Money could be earned without a shop or without sitting around." True!
"There would be a set price for things, inflation would only occur with the amount of gold people have." Every reason for inflation happening now would still happen with gold standard, in addition to the sharp spikes when gold planet people join in and hackers join right before they're banned. You're not decreasing reasons for inflation, sorry. Shop owners will always try to under-price other shop owners until the point it doesn't make a profit... making their shops communistic and boring (I don't know where they think making imaginary money is fun, but I'm assuming the ability to set your own price is one of them). Supply/demand is the other reason for inflation, and that will always stay around. Have any that disappear?
"A server shop could still be implemented with a gold standard economy." This is to inform/correct those who you confused by the poll. Understood.
If you're not completely angry at me for either being ignorant or breaking your argument, consider the following. It's a good idea and has nothing to do with disagreeing or agreeing with anyone.
.
.
.
Change the Poll:
@everyone I'm pretty sure most of us misunderstood or were confused at the time we voted. I don't think we should use this poll as proof of what the server wants =/
The poll should have the following six options and everyone gets three votes, one for each of the categories:
For/against server shop (for meaning have an expensive server run shop for when supplies in player shops are low or people are too lazy to browse, against meaning no server run shop etc.)
For/against gold standard (for meaning gold standard, against meaning current currency)
For/against the command shop system (for meaning we use the command to sell/buy from each others' shops or the server shop if we vote yes on it, against meaning we use physical shops [I think aeon said if we have a server shop we need the commands for it, so we'll have the command also for just that shop. I don't know if I'm remembering correctly though, aeon? x.x ])
@justin none of the options will close the gap immediately, they are all long term plans. If you don't do anything stupid, I'm sure you'll command the lead for a few months at least (assuming you also got a few double chest fulls of ore from the gold planets).