Creative vs. Non-Creative

[Indrae]

Consider it this way: Say that a new player has joined our server. This new player leads a busy life and the time required to gather materials might not be available to them. If there is no alternative, that player will probably start searching for a new server, and we would have lost out on a great new addition to the CFEW community. If we could offer that player the chance to use a creative world (without taking anything away from those who prefer a traditional play style), we might just be able to keep them.

Minecraft is not a straightforward game. Some people play for the survival aspect, others play to build, others for PvP, and the list goes on. That concept is not new to us, especially if you look at the changes that have been made to the server in the past. Our main world did not offer a true survival experience, so what did we do? We added Adventure World to cater to the players who are interested in that play style. We didn't offer PvP in the main world, so what did we do? We added PvP world (and even though it has been underutilized since we added it, it is the fact that we added it that counts). We have had the same reasoning when adding City World, Flatlands, Desert World, and RS World.

By adding all of those worlds to accomodate various playing styles, we followed the main principle of this server that overrides all others: Everybody is welcome. We shouldn't be welcoming to only those people who believe that "Legit" building is the only respectable method of building to the exclusion of other players who have different opinions on how Minecraft should be played. We should try to create a system in which everyone, even if they do not agree on how the game should be played, can come together and be one community.

[shppthwhtfx]

I'm still very much against aligning the main world's Architect rank with builds made from creative mode, but I understand our server is a forever evolving concept. I just don't want to ruin our server to appease and indulge those who want creative mode.

I am actually ok with making a creative world as long as the following is met: Inventory is isolated from the rest of the worlds (pretty much a given), ranks are isolated (builds there won't effect main world ranks), and fishy agrees this is needed.
Creative world might even have their own "builder/member" and "creative-architect" ranks ...actually sounds better with creative before it xD Those OP using the world can decide on how high a bar they wish to put "creative-architect". I still believe creative mode effects the quality a persons builds because of the time it saves and the resources available to them. And I want fishy involved because like it or not, this is effectively giving everyone that enters that world inventory hacking which is against the rules of main world. Fishy probably had the choice of adding a creative world to non-OPs before but hasn't yet, maybe his input will put light on something not said yet. To be honest I can't predict how allowing public access to this world will effect our server, it might get a splurge of popularity then die off as people get bored with it ...like pretty much every other alt world we've made haha

...I'm not even going to go into Ind's flawed logic in the last post, I've argued with him enough this week over pointless stuff =/ Which reminds me, everyone just know that we're disagreeing so much now because the admin issue is bringing up a ton of different ideas. Don't take these disagreements personally, I still love you all (like how pancake batter loves hedgehogs... not like how tissue paper loves eraser shavings).

[Indrae]

Explain how it is flawed. I find it insulting that nearly everything I post has some sort of flawed logic in it according to you.

Edit: A common argument I've seen against creative builds counting for Architect is that creative builds inherently require less work. That is not always the case. Take the city world station. We had creative while building that nearly the entire time. That doesn't mean that we didn't work hard. We spent hours and days upon end on that building, and I won't stand for any insinuation that that building and all of the work that was put into it is somehow worth less than a built without creative. That is what disallowing creative builds to count towards Architect does. It unfairly punishes the builder and to an extent denigrates them and implies that the work and craftsmanship that they put into their build was not good enough. I would seriously reconsider playing on this server if we implemented a separate ranking system for a creative world. It would imply to me that we as a server would consider the non-creative world ranks (and therefore the builders themselves) as being superior and of a higher status than the creative ranks. That is something I will not tolerate.

[Eaglefighter]

You cant really call inds system unfair, players can choose to which world they want to go to.

[9bjames]

Okay, again, I haven't managed to read everything so far in this whole post... there's just too much to catch up on, and with more exams, I don't have the time. What I will say is that I personally feel main world and city world ranks should be linked. By this, I mean a promotion in Main world to the architect would also mean a promotion to architect in the city world. I personally don't understand what it is used for currently in city world, perhaps it wouldn't be architect as it is now, per say, but I think it could be interesting... maybe so that in doing so, for Members we could have one city world, just for anyone to have a build around in, then once a player reaches architect, they get a higher tiered area to work with, possibly with more rules. This would add quite a few more worlds into the mix, but I think it could add an interesting aspect.

As for what Ind is saying with the whole issue on buildings from creative worlds counting for promotions... What I think you need to understand Indrae, is you're completely ignoring those who actually enjoy the legitemate building aspect, in favour of those who prefer creative. I can understand this, legit builds can be tedious, but I personally am someone who prefers them quite a lot. What I will say is, I disagree with splitting the ranking completely between legit and creative. We are trying to make it so OPs have to judge builds less, and having one set for creative, and one set for legitemate, I think it's just unnecessary. Although, I also think whether someone has used creative should be taken into account when considering the promotion. It's going to be a prestidgeous rank, there's no doubt that whether you build in creative or in main world, if your buildings have the right quality, you're going to get the rank. The only thing is, regardless of the effort used in creative, it is still far less than in main world. It isn't for the reason that creative world buildings should be counted less, it is just that main world builds are bound to take a lot longer, and as such a legit builder would take a lot longer to get the same rank. I would say if creative is counted into promoting, then you should be expected to have build more in creative, than in any legit world, simply for scaling purposes. possibly have a set number of buildings you need, and each creative world build counts as a half? I don't know, at any rate I feel it would have to be something similar just to be balanced. It wouldn't always just have to be down to quantity, it's probably more the case that it'd have to be judged qualitively, but this is simply a suggestion to resolve these problems we're having in discussion.

[shppthwhtfx]

I was typing up another essay to respond to Ind when I realized my opinion was said... but simply misunderstood (maybe my phrasing). So I rewrote it after reading over all of the posts again. Just one quick thing:

That isn't the question or topic of discussion here. This is a question of the merits of having a world with creative enabled. Whether we judge the builds more harshly or not is not important to this discussion.

I would like to point out that how creative world builds are judged for architect IS related to a topic calling for a world with creative mode on. This should be discussed as well, but is not the primary focus and I have lumped my feelings about judging builds in with my feelings about creative mode being on the server itself. For that I apologize and will clear up now.

Main Points:
I am not against having creative world itself. I am simply concerned with fishy's feelings of us not bringing him into this (us changing the dynamic of his server without him, its like us taking away every plugin and making the server vanilla while he's away), concerned with whether people will become bored with our server if we make creative mode public, and with how we'll balance the architect rank x.x I am not for or against adding the world itself as long as the ranks are ironed out. The rest are small concerns that I think we should consider.

Architect rank related:
Our disagreements all stim back to whether creative mode makes building easier or not. Here's my reasoning on the issue:
flat land - fishy often flattens land for people but it'd be on a much wider scale then, this speeds the process for starting up builds for a majority of the server because they don't like Flatland world for some reason. I'm not against this aspect however.
creative mode punch - basically superpick except more accessible, makes for quicker clean up of mistakes which speeds building up
unlimited resources - this makes resources that fishy has previously withheld in kits available as well, also you have so many of everything you won't need to be as careful with where you place things which adds to the number of mistakes but also speeds building up

Logical Fallacies since you asked for them:
Just keep in mind EVERYONE uses logical fallacies sometimes and when I said I was tired of arguing with Ind, I meant tired of arguing... not tired because he constantly uses flawed logic (just twice noticeably). I viewed them as something not worth arguing about and decided to delete my whole argument refuting them. My mistake was keeping the mention of them... Ind saw it and got insulted rather than me having at least tried to explain what I meant. Also, I just noticed yours to no fault of your own. My english teacher just drilled them in my head a week ago and got me good and sick of them from frustrating examples on controversial topics ...then I saw Ind using one and lashed out x.x sorry for that. As for the actual examples themselves, there are only two:

*points up* that quote I put in this post is stacking an argument to your favor so that the opposition can't make any of their points. Fallacy: avoiding the argument
The comparison that the need from those craving creative mode is equivalent to those wanting a survival aspect of minecraft in pvp/mobs or a higher height limit for flatland builds. Creative mode caters to those who are not motivated to collect resources or are unable to collect the amount of resources they want (which fishy set up specifically ..notice no /kit diamond). Fallacy: faulty analogy

We apparently disagree about build quality judgement... that's not a fallacy, I won't insult you by claiming that. Reading over your arguments in previous posts, I do see alot of good points in there that I skimmed over cause I was in the zone of arguing x.x They don't change my mind about the architect thing... but I am warmer to the idea of creative world. (which is to say, not cold to it anymore)

Conclusion:
We should get fishy involved in this discussion since he deserves the chance to review his options. Lets work out differences in architect rank. My concerns with adding creative can't really be proven valid one way or the other, we can choose and hope either way as long as we're all aware of them. Then when all that is done lets add creative world if nothing gets brought up to disturb it again.

[Aeonex]

@Eagle I agree, perhaps it would be best that we give every user on the server the -potential- to use creative mode? I.E. reward players who gain Architect in survival world the ability to choose creative?

@Indrae While your concerns are fairly legitimate, we must also consider the profound impact adding creative would pin on this server. Shpp has a valid concern regarding the addition of a creative world, same with fire. It would seriously make the opinions of our users change significantly. This is not a bad thing, as they are trying to make it out to be however (more explained below).

@Shpp While following a legit server / bukkit flavored only is very favorable to the old way of CFEW. Minecraft servers around us are evolving rapidly. I am not saying we ought to cater and change ourselves because of these other servers. I am also not proposing that this server not remain legitimate. To elaborate, I agree with your ideas on separate inventories and separate worlds. I have been to other servers where the creative mode/free build aspect of the server was strictly confined using ranks OR worlds. I am, however, against the separation of ranks. Not so much about the "confusion" aspect of it, but the fact that it would actually ADD to the belief that our server is NOT legit.

Example: Someone joins CFEW and sees:
[Creative-Architect]Aeonex_Ashaxei: I like ducks!

What is their first impression?
Wouldn't it be easier to distinguish between the creative/non-creative aspects by adding world suffixes to names? CW, SW, TW (etc.?) What do you think?

@Shpp Your concerns with flatlands world are also fairly important. Is there anything you could come up with that would promote this world, if you really want to keep it? (I know you like pixel art, a lot of us do.) Maybe 3 portals for a spawn and have Art World (Now flatlands), Creative World and traditional?

For my own opinion (Not saying the above were or weren't opinions, just a new idea right here). I am also very concerned with the fact that just about no one here has mentioned even an inkling of PVP/Survival worlds. To me, that follows under "Non-Creative" legit building! Even more than any other world, in fact. I see a lot of potential in Adventure World. A survival world where griefing is mostly unacceptable, stealing is okay, but lock your chests, and just about anything else goes! Not only does this add "value" to a world, people know they can keep their builds, but it also has mobs! Mobs are so important, taking that away severely destroys a servers "legit" aspects.

I am going to make a separate post with my ideas on the 4 (maybe 5) new worlds with portals concept. I'll post it in the same part of the forums.


-Aeonex