POLL: New Economy

[clownfish]

@Aeonex & Shpp - Thanks for your insight and ideas on the economy. I don't have a strong opinion on the economy yet, but keep the ideas going here. Thank you!

@Aeonex - Yes I think some test server with test economy plugins would be fun for everyone to give variations of these ideas a 'test run'. This can't hurt, and we could get some great feedback from the community.

@Pigpenguin - Thank you also for your ideas and input. I also agree an auto broadcast of '/warp shoplist' will greatly benefit the server economy. Making all players evenly aware of the opportunity to buy from many full and active shops is bound to help the economy a lot. To make this a reality we will need to find a good 'broadcast' plugin. There are dozens of them. I'll try to find one. We can also use it for many other 'info tidbits' that OPs often have to repeat in game. As for 'BOSEconomy' and how it works. I'm very new at it also but please come here and start learning it with us: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/boseconomy/ On that page, check out the 'Command list' (mid way down). For starts here are the basic in-game commands: /econ income, /econ help, /pay > <name> <amount>, /econ info <name> ... there is so much more. BOSEconomy seems to offer a lot more options that iconomy ever did.

[Aeonex]

Ok, I can understand all that =) btw I choose a simplistic view because our economy is more simplistic than real life. We have no quality for instance, only supply and consistency of that supply ...just as an example.

What I don't understand is how having more, easier accessible money will change the mindset that the shop owners have. We already have a ton of money, you argue that our interest rate is too high (meaning we're giving money away too quickly), yet you suggest having more money will fix the economy ...contradictory. Perhaps if they have to earn that money instead of sit around, they'll view the money as worth more, but I doubt it... we're not dealing with a pure adult populace. It's monopoly money =/ I agree making more money in the economy should promote inflation, but you're reducing it at the same time with the interest rate, confusing the monkeys out of me.

We need to change the mindset of the economy, not the currency. I continue to not see how gold being the currency fixes the mindset of diamond being worth $20.

I don't mind you trying to cause inflation, I just don't believe this option will work. How about you use your massive amounts of money you aren't using to set up a shop that buys these resources for the minimum amount you think diamonds are worth? I think that'd help xD We need someone to buy the things that are too inexpensive.
Can we get some mini games to give money? haha all in the name of inflation! Make that money worthless, woo! I think something's wrong with my plan xD

I'm done arguing if you fail to see the very obvious. My theory stands and hasn't been thwarted. I never said, even remotely, to INCREASE the amount of gold/money everyone has. The entirety of all my posts have been against that.

For instance:
Levelling the playing field by LOWERING interest rates.
Turning money into gold, making gold a high conversion price to lower the amount of money everyone has.
Making money harder to obtain.
Fixing supply and demand.

How is that contradictory?

Applying REAL value to money, TRUST into the economy, is VITAL to ANY thriving economy, simple or not. Making money into gold perfectly does that. It's not about having a "different currency", it's about making the economy trusted. The United States economy, for example, has crashed 3 times since the Reagan standard (50 years) (your ideas for an economy) was implemented. It crashed only ONCE on the gold standard, in 200 years, because of crop devastation, which couldn't be helped.

Our economy isn't simplistic, our server runs on supply and demand, like every economy. If our server didn't run on supply and demand, it WOULD be simplistic.

"Perhaps if they have to earn that money instead of sit around, they'll view the money as worth more, but I doubt it... we're not dealing with a pure adult populace. It's monopoly money" So, basically, if it were gold, it wouldn't be "monopoly money", right? Sounds like you agree. And does a kid buy candy, teddy bears, or ask their parents for money? Yes. Do children participate in economies? Yes, how does that affect how complex or simple an economy is?

This is my final warning to all of you. Promoting the shop system and the shop list will only aggregate and fuel our Monopsony economy. It will propel the user base to rule over the shops, by deciding the prices of the shops. Why would shop owners raise their prices? The users will become more aware of the prices of other shops and force shop owners to continue to compete.

You all have fun with your Economy, I'll support it, but it's going to burn, hard.

[shppthwhtfx]

I never said, even remotely, to INCREASE the amount of gold/money everyone has. The entirety of all my posts have been against that.

With Gold Standard run economy, the user base would have more money to spend, and the shop owners would not feel the need to cater to every buyer who comes to their store.

o.o ... I might be misunderstanding this. "more" money as in "useful" money perhaps?

Whatever, if you're tired of arguing with someone who doesn't understand your points, then I'll stop arguing with someone that doesn't understand mine too. We should have an actual poll that lists all the combinations to see what everyone really wants. The last one probably confused people into thinking they could only have one without the others.

I'm proposing again we make another poll. Please correct the errors aeon, for the greater good let us work together! (seriously though, please? This what what you were asking in the first place anyway)
The poll should have the following six options and everyone gets three votes, one for each of the three categories (each catagory gets two options, one for and one against):
For/against server shop (for meaning have an expensive server run shop for when supplies in player shops are low or people are too lazy to browse, against meaning no server run shop etc.)
For/against gold standard (for meaning gold standard, against meaning current currency)
For/against the command shop system (for meaning we use the command to sell/buy from each others' shops or the server shop if we vote yes on it, against meaning we use physical shops [I think aeon said if we have a server shop we need the commands for it, so we'll have the command also for just that shop. I don't know if I'm remembering correctly though, aeon? x.x ])

[Indrae]

Could I make a request? Rather than theorize about how these types of systems would play out on the server, could someone compile a list of how other servers handle their economies? I think it would be useful to see some of these concepts in action in Minecraft. Granted, our server has a high proportion of younger players, so that might affect any comparison.

[Aeonex]

Could I make a request? Rather than theorize about how these types of systems would play out on the server, could someone compile a list of how other servers handle their economies? I think it would be useful to see some of these concepts in action in Minecraft. Granted, our server has a high proportion of younger players, so that might affect any comparison.

Okay, I can do that. I have played on many servers, I won't list the actual server addresses, but I will list a quick breakdown of the different types of dynamic economies.

Here's a quick breakdown of different types of economies that servers run on.

-Economies with jobs/roles (MCMMO)
-Economies with shops (ChestShops/Market)
-Economies with shops and jobs
-Economies with physical currency (Redstone, Gold, Diamond, Emerald)
-Economies with physical currency and jobs
-Economies with physical currency, jobs, and shops
-Economies with real-estate (Factions, Banking system, or Paid Zoning)
-Economies with real-estate and physical currency
-Economies with real-estate, physical currency, and jobs
-Economies with real-estate, jobs and shops
-Economies with real-estate, shops, and physical currency
-Economies with real-estate, shops, physical currency and jobs

The three simplest forms of economies are:
-Economies with shops only
-Economies with real-estate only
-Economies with jobs only

From personal experience, the more dynamic, the more complex, and the more fluid an economy is, the better the economy all together. The best economy I have ever seen had these features:

Factions, Town Zoning, Banks, Redstone Currency, and Jobs (This was a roleplay server)

We have upgraded with BOSEconomy, in my opinion, now with the ability to create a banking system. If we can get real-estate into our economy, then, I'll reluctantly admit that physical currency won't be an issue, since money will be based on land value, instead of, well... nothing.

[EducatedPizza]

Just catching up on the forum a bit. After skimming through this thread, I feel that a point needs to be addressed. Take it for what you will, but it is just something that has crossed my mind while reading some of these posts.

We need to keep in mind the demographic of our users. Many of them are a lot younger than some of the people debating about in-game economies. The extent of my knowledge of an economy/money when I was 13 or 14 was that I would get an allowance from my parents for doing chores, and I would go out and spend it on a new pack of pokemon cards or some candy or a movie with my friends. I didnt care about saving money or interest or anything like that. Not saying that a minecraft economy is anything like this, just putting in my two cents on how i viewed money when I was younger. I know that making a functioning economy in minecraft can be complicated. There are many factors that need to be taken into account, and this can often complicate the process. The only thing that I am proposing is to keep simplicity in mind. This may be a moot point, because economies are anything but simple, but I feel that our younger user base may get more enjoyment out of a simple economy

[Aeonex]

@Pizza While I agree on some key points, People don't need to understand something, to enjoy it. I got an allowance, as a child, to buy candy, and to also use it to invest in things I wanted to buy (bicycles, musical instruments). I enjoyed having money without understanding the complexity of it. As the people making the system, it will get very complex, and we will try to maintain a simple interface. But the system itself should be complex. Complexity makes things dynamic, and makes things enjoyable when done right.

Not sure if that's what you meant to say, if so, I agree, in whole.

[pigpenguin]

Adding features, particularly jobs and real-estate, sounds good. Giving money versatility, buying land in addition to blocks, increases its
value. In fact, the real estate idea may be a better alternative to the server shop as far as money trust goes. I like the fact that land can serve as a sort of investment - buy low and sell high. I'll probably post again after I think more about it.

[shppthwhtfx]

Real estate as in buying zones to protect your work? That is counter productive against our fight against griefers if that's true.
Or perhaps are we WE editing awesome areas to sell to players? That might be interesting.
If you think these ideas will assist (not sure what you support at this point), then it might be prudent to give a small description, just enough for us to understand the basic idea of each, or whatever. We can stick to this sort of conversation as well, just a suggestion =X

[fireb4llz]

I don't think that's what he meant. I was thinking more on the lines of buying a plot in a user created town but I could be wrong.