new rank system [reproposal]

[Justin Case Kazoo]

I agree with you on the last part Jams. The main point of Minecraft IS building. Many servers don't even have ranks. Why do we need them? Although, if I wasn't op and didn't have this title/recognition, I would wan't to have ranks just for something to brag about or be labelled as. It's just that I don't recognize people by ranks. For example, 0oze was only guest or b1 and yet he was very nice and built amazing things. Or Clo is just builder3, and yet I trust her. He who shall not be named was trusted6, yet I didn't trust him. If there's someone annoying or untrustworthy, I just see them as that kind of person, regardless of rank.
Also, amazing builders don't need a rank to show that they build awesome things. Everyone in the community knows kfourge, nopi, ep, indrae, and others are amazing builders even without a specific rank.
Soooo yeah, foos.

[fireb4llz]

[9bjames]

Lol Fire, the reason for it being called "player" over "member" would be so that there's no sense of worth given for it, it's meant to be something plain and obvious. XD The rank "player" would not even be displayed, so it'd purely be to remove the "guest" status, instead of promoting them to a rank. As for Honoured and Architect, it's again to get rid of this labelling, whilst still giving recognition. If players see people with ranks like Honoured or Architect, chances are they'd start to want those ranks even more, since really they sound pretty prestidgious, thus starting rank games again... and that'd lead to the same problems as before if OPs aren't strict (you'd still get pesterers). Really, I guess they still will be kinda, but I don't know... If I was below OP still, and saw someone with Architect, and I myself had no title, I'd feel quite a lot lower... Changing it to a single letter I think would almost bridge a gap, since in my mind, it changes it from being a rank, to more like an attribute given to someone's name.

And yeah, I know... I do write more than needed, just how I do things... not intentional. XD

Edit- A simpler way of putting it with the single letters thing is more like giving medals in a way, rather than an entire rank.

[Indrae]

Or, you know, instead of being afraid of rank gaming starting over again, we could take a stand and not promote people just because they ask us and guilt is into it. Will people beg OPs for promotions constantly? Probably. That's their own damn problem to get over though. We're trying to create a system that works for the server as a whole, and not one that caters to those who merely see ranks as something to go "Ooh, shiny, I want, gimme now." We're never going to be able to create a system that works for everybody. We want to create one that works best with our server philosophy an is the most practical. If people care about rank games more than that, then why should we even worry about trying to please them?

Having said all of that, I do think there are a few changes to be made to the ranks. Well, not so much the ranks themselves, but the power we give to OPs to hand them out. The way I see it, no single OP should be able to promote someone above Builder. Promotions to Honored new to be handled as a group decision, and we should set up a private section of the forums for OPs to discuss promotions to Honored and Architect. This would let us be stricter on promotions, and woul prevent people being promoted simply by pestering OPs until they find one who will promote them.

I advocate keeping the proposed rank names as is. For as long as the server has been around, we have always had a rank called "Builder". I think w should continue that tradition.

[9bjames]

@Ind, I am not saying us OPs shouldn't buckle up and just be more strict, really, I know they should, but whether they will is a different matter. The fact that some probably won't should be obvious; not everyone will see this, not everyone will care, least of all the OPs this should apply to. There are several approaches to this problem, and yes, a group decision system is how it should be done, an idea I've been pushing forward from the start, but if other things can help as well with other factors (such as sociological), then why not do it.

As for the keeping builder idea, I don't personally see why it should be kept. I'm not exactly one for traditions, and something like keeping the main rank which most players will be as builder? I'd say it'd just be more suitable to have something that makes players feel a little more neutral. Really, the rank name isn't important at all, I myself simply advocate the idea that the rank for builder (or whatever) should be more transparent. As for pleasing those who enjoy the rank games, I am not for that, but neither am I for going against what would suit the majority of all the players here. I agree with the whole philosophy that building is what should be the main interest for people playing this game, but not everyone enjoys building as much as everyone else. Some people enjoy the game just for the sense of community, or just messing around fighting mobs and players, so the idea for calling it player was just to have an undefined rank, which would be irrelevant if the player can't see the rank name anyway.

Last point, I am not in the least bit worried about being guilted into doing anything. On the other hand, something that does annoy me is when people pester. All I am suggesting, is to improve the system, so we don't get people trying to play rank games in the first place, thus creating another solution to the endless cycle of annoyance. In the case of honoured and architect becoming shortened to A/H, either way it should be governed strictly, but shortening would just stop players pestering as much... maybe... it was simply a suggestion which went with the theme of minimising the whole rank idea, to help with this problem of player dissatisfaction, an area I think shouldn't be overlooked. At the same time, even though it has long been overdue to have this rank overhaul, it doesn't mean we should have no sympathy for the others who it'll affect who enjoyed it, and who didn't really cause a problem. People can say "you don't need a rank to validate your worth", but even though it's true it isn't how everyone sees it. Not only that, validation isn't the only reason for wanting a rank. We SuperOPs have our own perks, one of which are custom ranks, something virtually every SuperOP has requested. This shows you that at least to some degree, if anyone has the option then they will try to individualise their own name tag. There isn't much difference between that and a rank, it's still something that sets you apart from a crowd, even if it just moves from one crowd to another. I guess in a way, my solutions reek of the phrase "this is why we can't have nice things", but why should we have to go through the process of being pestered, when we could just have a method to suit everyone... (ideally without removing good aspects) Really, that's what I'm after, and if there's a way, I'd rather find it than irresponsibly forsake other people's interests.

[fireb4llz]

I would like to make a few points. First, This pestering is most likely caused by the fact that were giving the players too much ranks in too less time. We gave the players the chance to be able to get a promotion once a week for 8 weeks possibly. The longest time i went without a promotion when I was a normal player was 2 months(t7 to t8). Sometime during that long wait i stopped caring. I have a feeling if players are forced to wait that long there should be much less pestering. Also, The fact that most promotions wont be decided by one OP should also contribute to pester reduction.

Second, What makes you think simply abbreviating ranks will cause people to be more polite? there still ranks either way and people will still pester to get them. There isn't anyway to completely eliminate people "wanting rank games" without getting rid of ranks entirely. Getting rid of all ranks would cause problems as well, if we give players a lot of permissions then guests could easily abuse them and if we gave people not many permissions then players would be too restricted and all those great plugins we have would go to waste.

What already has been proposed is our best chance really. There are a few problems with the other idea actually. One, We have over 10,000 unique visitors that are or have been on the server. Going with this will make converting all these players MUCH more difficult. Two, These prefixes might make rs ranks a bit more confusing. I don't think its worth the trouble really. If we REALLY need to we can get rid of the architect rank. I guess it isn't entirely necessary. Also, I'd prefer to call builder "member". I just think the name better suits the purpose.

[9bjames]

H/ A makes them seem like less of a big deal. They're shorter, they seem more like a an option than a rank, which is what they are. With Honoured and Architect, it is not definite that anyone will get them, and it won't really affect, or change their gaming experience, one of reasons people would pester is because of the status symbol aspect, so making it a bit more ambiguous might help a bit? Not saying it was a great idea, but the theory was that a shorter name makes it seem less different to a nameless rank, where having a rank with no title would just make people's ranks seem more individual, since it would only be their names being displayed.

Guest would still be there of course, the ranks would still be the same in terms of permissions, and yeah, there will be an issue with issuing players permissions. Maybe it could be that honoured contained things like /time day and /time night, knowing what has happened before with that being spammed.

But makes RS ranks more confusing? Are they not just going to be scrapped entirely? We don't need RS ranks in most worlds anymore, we have an RS school world, which is where people could have the RS ranks, just like city world and AW have their own rank sets. Since RS School is creative anyway, I don't see the need for the kits anymore. I don't like how easy it's made RS to collect anyway.

[fireb4llz]

I don't think that simply abbreviating a rank will really do anything. It's still a rank that people can achieve and that's enough for people to want it. We don't need to make the system much more confusing simply because this may or may not slightly reduce something. If you dont think it's a good idea why are you persistantly supporting it? As we continue to argue it will further delay any actions to at least improve upon the current system. Your afraid of people pestering yet people will continue to pester if we can't completely agree on something. Why not implement what we had before then if it really sucks come up with another solution? At least this way we'll have made some type of progress. I get the feeling this is why nothing has been done about the ranks since July. Everyone wants to make the ranking system absolutely perfect yet there's no way to make it completely satisfy everyone.

[9bjames]

Much more confusing? What's confusing about it? It'd just be shorter, that's all. All I'm doing is arguing points for it, seeing as people are arguing points against it, to help weight out the benefits and the disadvantages. That's just how a discussion works isn't it? It just seems some other people are starting to get a bit uptight about it. ._.
And afraid of people pestering? As I've said, I'm not at all afraid of it, but if it can be stopped or reduced, then isn't that a bonus?
I think people have begun to misunderstand my intentions here, I'm not trying to strongly push forward my ideas, I'm only trying to make suggestions which may help. They're not all going to be good, but I think the whole thing with making ranks less noticable is worth some thought. Whilst this is discussed, I'm all for what has already been proposed to be put into action, it is going to be at some point anyway, but the reason action hasn't been taken yet is purely because of the whole situation with the server not being updated.

[fireb4llz]

Ok, I guess "much more confusing" wasnt my best wording. I was just concerned about actually converting to that system but now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't be too bad. Also, just a random idea but what If we just had ranks displayed as different colored usernames?